Third Man Owes Neil Yee from the Gold Dollar $$ (Vault 13)

[rsimms3]

I think you are putting different things together.

Jack has said he had a copy of the cassette in various interviews and said he thought he had lost it prior to Blackwell's "bootleg" pressing.

As for the chairs, Jeff Meier who recorded Let's Shake Hands sold a set of chairs upholstered by Jack either here or through eBay.
http://www.whiteswirl.com/forum/viewtop ... rs#p145263
Remember the run out groove for the Alt Take from Vault 2? "RESCUED FROM EBAY OUT OF... THE HANDS OF AN EXTORTIONIST DETROIT ENGINEER"

[Jettkoral]

Hey now, Jeff's cool.

[Jamie]

Wasn't the Jack upholstering for payment thing also involved in the Let's Shake Hands alternate master tape scenario?

EDIT: That'll teach me to not notice a second page.

[G-squared]

Funny seeing him act surprised in the film, and calling it a bootleg, since he had requested that I make the recording, and I had given the cassette copy directly to him...

That's the part that I swear sounds most familiar, along with the bit about Jack upholstering a chair for him as payment. But don't mind me, I'm just gonna wander over into the corner and continue my Alzheimer's moment all by myself.

I think that I read this on little room. It must have got bumped over there recently.

[Kali Durga]

Funny seeing him act surprised in the film, and calling it a bootleg, since he had requested that I make the recording, and I had given the cassette copy directly to him...

That's the part that I swear sounds most familiar, along with the bit about Jack upholstering a chair for him as payment. But don't mind me, I'm just gonna wander over into the corner and continue my Alzheimer's moment all by myself.

I think that I read this on little room. It must have got bumped over there recently.

It was posted twice on the LR just the other day and when I saw it there I was sure I'd already seen it discussed here months ago. And then this thread popped up. This is one of those situations like when you have the name of a song or movie or something right on the tip of your tongue and can't... quite... remember it. Maybe I dreamed this. Or maybe I'm just crazy. Either way, doesn't matter to the rest of y'all. So, no one's got thoughts on what the guy has to say?

[woodisgood]

So, no one's got thoughts on what the guy has to say?

I'd love to chime in with a useless opinion, but without knowing TMR's official stance from their side of this situation, how can anyone know what the true scoop is? The arts world is filled to the brim with people who feel they've been slighted by The Man.* Sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't, but most of the time the truth resides in a dark, fuzzy middle world.

I will say this: I'm a fan of TMR—just like I'm a fan of Trouble in Mind, Matador, Drag City, In the Red, and a handful of other successful record labels. But having been on the working-insides of three different record labels in my life, I can tell you this: none of them are perfect, and each one will protect its "legal interests" (imaginary or real) when it best serves them. (And by "them," I mean the Head Honchos.) We hope all will act morally. But do they 100 percent of the time? You know the answer to that question.
____________________________
*The mythical big-business cigar-chomping "Man," not Third Man.

[Bikedo]

So, no one's got thoughts on what the guy has to say?

He shared part of this story with me a while ago and it sounds very plausible to me.
Would be nice to see a reaction from TMR on this.

[jrfhoutx]

I have plenty of opinions about it, I'll mostly keep it all to myself, but I will say that it's all kinda ridiculous.

I'm sure Jack sees it as a whole bunch of people trying to make some cash off of his fame and hard work (not just Yee or Meier, but everyone who pulls this stuff) and that's not to say that those people didn't work hard, but they got their compensation for services provided at the time (sure he didn't get cash, but he did have a service rendered in trade). Those people were all paid for a service, and received payment regardless of the form of payment, and they all found it to be acceptable payment at the time. You can't go back 15 years later an say it wasn't enough, the time to make that complaint was 15 years ago.

As far as the recordings themselves, while the physical tapes may be his, and may have been allowed, that doesn't necessarily mean that he can do as he pleases with them, nor does it mean that TMR has to pay him to use the content contained on them. Yeee rendered a service and provided a product that he was paid for, and how the product was used is irrelevant. the tape that was used was physically owned by the rights holder of the material contained on the tapes. Without permission, Yee can't do anything with those tapes but listen to them, what is done with the content on the tapes is at the discretion of the rights holder.

Sure, Yee owns the physical tapes, TMR owns the rights to the content contained on them. If TMR wants to use those specific tapes, then yes, they need to buy them from him. But if they already own a copy of the content contained on Yee's tapes, then they don't owe him anything if they choose to use the copy they own.

If you want a good example take a look at the Grateful Dead and Betty Cantor-Jackson...

[rsimms3]

I agree with jrfhoutx about the rights management part of this issue. Content holder has rights to the content, but not distribution because the songs are under the rights of Jack as published works. That's the terms under which Jack White live recordings can't be shared on sites like Dime A Dozen, etc.

Yee doesn't really look like he's asking for money, looks like he's asking for credit which he deserves. It might not be required, but it's poor form not to. Obviously we see what happens when folks disagree on stuff or agree on stuff related to TMR - Meier has a negative run-out etching written about him and Italy Records has their website address included on a TMR reissue funneling folks to his website. At least that's how it looks on the surface from my perspective.

Lastly, it seems that Yee may be misunderstanding use of the word "bootleg". In UGWNL, Jack's reaction appears completely honest. He thought the tape was lost, an "unauthorized" copy was created in the form of an LP which is technically a bootleg. As for the Vault 13 announcement, I see no mention of "bootleg", only soundboard as he pointed out. I also see live recording, but no mention of bootleg.

Definitely interesting history and definitely would like to see if anything comes out of it but I doubt anything ever will.

[Alabama Woody]

Maybe TMR ( Jack) could throw him a bone, so to speak. A little recognition and a test press might have been all it took.
I of course do not know the whole story. Maybe he didn't deserve shit.

[Grimtale]

I've actually talked to Neil myself a few times over the years about these recordings that he has. I eventually ended up in the same spot he was, even if I bought them off him, I'd then be up against the battle of TMR supporting the use of them for anything so I left it alone.
Grim

[PugFaceRex]

Funny seeing him act surprised in the film, and calling it a bootleg, since he had requested that I make the recording, and I had given the cassette copy directly to him...

That's the part that I swear sounds most familiar, along with the bit about Jack upholstering a chair for him as payment. But don't mind me, I'm just gonna wander over into the corner and continue my Alzheimer's moment all by myself.

possibly thinking about Jim Diamond suing for royalties from the s/t album since he engineered/produced/something'd it?

[Dr.Zissou]

Seems like TMR could and should just buy the tapes... they are obviously worth more now than 15 years ago. Memorabilia becomes more valuable over time when someone/thing gains in popularity over the course of time. TWS own the music, Neil owns the master tapes, TMR i'm sure has enough money to purchase the tapes (what's a reasonable price? If TMR pays 50K for the master tape of one show I think they make money on it after all the costs associated with making a record ect. TMR must get some kind of big break from United for all the business they bring (I also make no claim to know if 50k is too little for a master analog tape of the first TWS show or how much anyone has offered/willing to pay)). Then TMR would own the original master recording and the guy who held onto the tape for 15 years gets fair market value. He was already compensated for making the recording and he gave jack a tape correct? Both parties executed on their deal made 15 years ago. A master analog recording was not in the deal so if TMR wants it then they should have to pay for it. Neil can sell it for whatever price he likes. It seems like TMR might have been appalled by what he was asking for and rather than pay for the tapes and put out an analogue recording, they said F-you we'll use what we've got.

This is just my opinion from reading the first post and what has been said subsequently following that post. I'm not saying anything i've said is in any way right, it's just an opinion. I just think this dude has the tapes, TMR could have and should have worked out some kind of deal for them and then we might have had an amazing sounding release. If you have the option of making the record sound better than i'm all for that (as I think most people are) but i'm also okay with it being market as a raw gritty live recording because I want to hear all thing TWS no matter what, and maybe that's what TMR figured.

How much would you pay for the master analog tape of the first ever Led Zeppelin performance, Dylan, Hendrix, The Beatles or any other musical giants? Let's face it... The White Stripes are an amazing band and Jack White is an amazing, famous, well regarded musician. I think that tape is worth waaaaaaay more than 50k. (sorry for any typos I do not like to proofread)

[crimpies]

You guys should read about the Doors tapes from the Matrix.

[DBCooper]

3) Did Ben Blackwell record any other shows at the Gold Dollar? Well... In case you haven't figured it out... despite the implication in the film, Ben did not record any shows at the Gold Dollar. Ben's only "involvement" at the Gold Dollar was that we sometimes let him in to shows because he was related to the talent.

so you let underage people into a bar in the state of Michigan? pretty sure that's illegal too. unless these shows were before 9pm.