Vinyl Record Raffle Facebook Group

[shaneoftheroad]

And BCC, if someone tries selling something HERE for over market value, they most certainly do get called out. Pretty much every time. If you've seen otherwise, please give us a specific example. Anybody can say it happens without proof. In my experience Swirl prices are always way better than even eBay's prices.

Not true.
I hardly ever get called out.

haha Fair enough.

[Bikedo]

But I always deliver.....

[BlindCarbonCopy]

Don't get me wrong, swirl prices are 95% of the time better than anything else. Some specific sellers on here are absolutely way beyond fair, almost crazy for how low they list their prices. Im not going to name anyone, or say what I think is overvalued because that's not what I was trying to do at all. There are people, most of you actually, that have been in this game far longer than I have, so maybe I'm undervaluing a few of these things, as I'm sure many of you have a far greater idea on what an acceptable price is than I do. But that's just it, it's a very few instances, as this place has a long history and has been able to grow and police itself.

My only point with all the raffle stuff was that there are a TON of people making a lot more than this one person does, but it's been the same guy getting called out twice. Absolutely the raffle model is flawed. But it's in its infancy stage and trying to make changes. That group isn't even 6 months old yet and has over 1000 people in it. Keeping up with that type of growth is near impossible. Here you have the mods, then the OG's that take over where the mods can't and keep people in check. That group is so new, there is the equivalent to the mods with the admin, but no OG's, everyone has been there about the same time, so nobody could even effectively police it even if the rules allowed.

As far as arewhyehen, I understand your anger with all that. I'm not saying you are wrong necessarily either for being mad. But again, it's the nature of all the raffle pages and many of the hosts. There's a guy on there that buys directly from Newbury and the raffles them off for twice what he paid for while using the "limited" terminology, but never fully disclosing those records are still available for purchase through Newbury. He says he does it for int'l sellers, as they can't get Newbury he says (I personally don't know), but there are many US ppl that play his. My whole point wasn't ever that "nobody had a right to be upset", as that is certainly up to each individual, my thing was just that singling out one person when almost the entire system broken doesn't work. And the majority of the people there know exactly how he gets things. You can't play in 4 straight LiM raffles from the same host and not know that he is buying specifically to raffle.

I just wanted to give the other side of it, and am not fully personally invested or anything, other than knowing that raffler well, knowing what he pays for just about everything, and knowing that his margins are some of the lower ones on that group. As far as flippers go, doesn't bother me personally, but I don't think anyone is "wrong" that doesn't like them. I've never sold a single vinyl to anyone ever, which i'm sure someday will change, and then I'll have to choose how I will approach it. Regardless, I respect everyone here, love this group, personally know and respect the raffler, and like that group while knowing full well what it is (gambling, price gouge, horrible investment, etc). So in essence, I'm trying my best to not alienate any of those groups or people in them, while knowing raffler and trying to explain that side of it. I haven't gotten to read a lot of the responses after mine, I'm not going to have time tonight. But just wanted to clarify and respond to Shane and a little to arewhyehen.

[shaneoftheroad]

My only point with all the raffle stuff was that there are a TON of people making a lot more than this one person does, but it's been the same guy getting called out twice.

I'm not being a dick here, I want it clear I'm speaking to you from a place of respect. OK? That's first off. And remember I've acknowledged this guy is a good guy. But are you SURE there are others making much more than he does? By my estimation he's in the thousands of dollars by now. And the reason he gets called out more than anyone else is because of the frequency of his raffles. No one even came close during my time in the group.

Again, I have no relationship with or experience with him. I've heard from people I respect that he's a good guy and I believe them. But I do see where my fellow Swirlers are coming from. And I do understand absolutely why this one person is singled out. And I think if you thought about it for a second you'd get it too. Ya' know?

And I better shut up now before I bring down the wrath of a couple thousand new-school collectors on my head.

[Aquamarine]

I'm probably being naive here, but I'm not sure how legal these raffles are. I'm not in the raffle groups because, apart from anything else, I never win anything so would be throwing money away, basically, but since it's essentially gambling I did also wonder if there were any legal ramifications. Can anybody enlighten me?

[JonnyH]

I'm probably being naive here, but I'm not sure how legal these raffles are. I'm not in the raffle groups because, apart from anything else, I never win anything so would be throwing money away, basically, but since it's essentially gambling I did also wonder if there were any legal ramifications. Can anybody enlighten me?

It depends on the state that you are in. But in some cases, including where I live, it's gambling, and online gambling at that. It violates PayPal terms and conditions as well as bookface's.

[Aquamarine]

I'm probably being naive here, but I'm not sure how legal these raffles are. I'm not in the raffle groups because, apart from anything else, I never win anything so would be throwing money away, basically, but since it's essentially gambling I did also wonder if there were any legal ramifications. Can anybody enlighten me?

It depends on the state that you are in. But in some cases, including where I live, it's gambling, and online gambling at that. It violates PayPal terms and conditions as well as bookface's.

I wondered if some issues like that might be involved, especially since my state would take the same line as yours.

[sampson]

I'm new here, obviously, but members of the other groups. I have no stake in anything and don't participate in raffles at this point, so I guess I'm neutral to the whole topic. Try not to take this post personally as it's a commentary on the overall topic at hand. If it is taken personally by anyone oh well, step back for a moment and ask yourself why you're taking exception to it. I'm just a nobody anyway.

I do find the drama being manufactured by individuals with no interest in the raffles to be unnecessary and childish at best. The word "toxic" was used to describe the environment these raffles and the associated "prices" could create. The reality is that the only people creating that drama are individuals not even involved with them. I've read the explanations in this thread, and others on Facebook, as to why people think it's their responsibility to take issue with raffles. Frankly all the explanations come off as nothing but self-serving scenester BS. The never-ending crusade against flippers, the pseudo-collective concern for every buyers interest, and the heartfelt concern for the health of a hip scene. All valid concerns to some small degree I suppose, but at the same time I'm not swallowing the selfless nature of these call-outs.

When it comes to people reselling or raffling items why are you concerned and why is it your business? Why do you care how people spend their money and why do you care how much other people make from selling/raffling items? Is there scene-wide sale price envy? I don't see the point at all. Reselling items of all sorts is how money is made throughout the entire world economy. If someone has the resources (time + money + effort) to buy items then turnaround and sell them for a profit, well good for them. That's just good business sense. Just because you do not want to do something similar or be involved does not mean it's wrong to do it. Everyone literally engages in the reselling of goods/services in some capacity nearly on a daily basis. Cherry-picking which ones to be angry about is kinda annoying.   

Whether it is a sale transaction or a raffle the basic market forces and economic theories will always prevail. When prices are too high the items won't move. When the demand is there and the buyers are willing to consistently pay the price, well then there is general proof of market value. There will always be aberrations and extremes at both ends of the value spectrum with the majority ending up around the middle. That is the bell curve all aspects of life adhere to. There IS a considerable amount of emotional influence on collectibles of course, which drives purchasing decisions. This is all base level economics that everyone should have a firm grasp on, if not there is plenty of info on the glorious internet. Now back to the raffle aspect.

Aggregate raffle "prices" do not have, or have not consistently demonstrated, an upward pressure or influence on true market values and they likely never will. How many other things are raffled off on a daily basis? You don't see the price for whatever generic item skyrocketing in price because raffles brought in that party more than the "value".  A raffle and a market based sale are two unrelated and incomparable events. The fact that someone can go out and outright buy the item for $100 less than the raffle aggregate price is completely irrelevant. The assumption is that an individual participating in a raffle is within the same market cross-section as the individual in the cash buyer market. The assumption is of course wrong and doesn't take into account a few points. The #1 point is the gambling aspect.  People LOVE gambling and the associated dopamine rush. The possibility of getting something big for virtually nothing and the feeling of fun that goes along with. I shouldn't have to tell anyone how popular and large an industry gambling is. The person willing to spend $20 on a single raffle is not the same person willing to continually spend $300 on one item. Even if their aggregate raffle spending reaches $300 it is likely handled as their additional discretionary money, free to burn on whatever. Do you openly criticize the lottery, casinos and the patrons of each? I would hope not because that's generally a jerk move. You're not responsible for these people, don't try to be their mommy & daddy.

I saw the word "unethical" used as well. It seems as if anytime any profit is made from selling a piece of TMR gear it's virtually considered a sin. Someone sold an item to another person for a sweet price and then that second person turned around and sold it for a profit, so who is the fool in that transaction chain? Why would you get angry that you basically did someone a half-favor but they didn't pass it along to the next person? Focus on yourself and stop worrying about other people, it makes you petty. The participants are all considered to be willing and able to understand the rules of the game and acting with fully conscious volition. Explain to me how it is unethical. I used to buy broken dirt bikes/atv for cheap then part them out and sell the parts individually and make a killing. It is expected of me to sell parts at a price near the cost that I bought them at? Hell no! I was in it to make money not hook people up and spend my time for no reason.

After the time and resources put into a raffle most sellers are walking away with profits less than $100. It requires more time and effort than just listing something for sale, taking the money and shipping it out. I cannot understand the hate for people spending their time and maximizing the return on it. I considered raffling off some stuff I own, but came to the conclusion that it's just more time and effort than I want to bother putting in. Then this mix of drama whining came along with tmr getting thrown into the fold and I said the hell with it for now.

There is such a scene-wide concern over prices by the very people who propagate the demand and drive the prices, it's mildly humorous. The finger is always pointed at the next guy and that pointing goes round and round the circle until the buck stops. I believe some people actually went to tmr to tell them people were raffling off their swag? It has actually regressed all the way back to grade school? Outstanding.

I would like to know why tmr would actually take the time to care. Someone give me a logical and compelling reason for tmr to take more than 1 second out of it's day to care about flipping/raffling their records/swag. Because they want the nice 'love our fans' pr? BS.

They have created this market, this is -exactly- the goal of the business. They have a strong primary market to the point where demand can always outstrip supply. They use that to their advantage by creating small batch limited items which are difficult to get and drives a very strong secondary market. Then it cycles back into new customers in their primary market and it starts all over. They love this, it's what's supposed to happen. Other record companies would kill to have it. So where is the vitriol for the very organization that creates this entire situation? It can't exist because it is the very temple this entire scene worships.

Remember when tmr sold five rare reissues on eBay, then caught flak for it? Then they responded with a basic 'well f u why can't we do it and make money? This is America, capitalism!'. That is the company people ran to in order to tattle tale on their scene peers. Bottom line is tmr shouldn't really care (it's not in their best interest to) and they don't have any control over larger economic forces of the secondary market.

The entire reselling horse has been endlessly beaten and no matter how much sense and logic is brought to the table some people just can't get over it. Now the raffling thing is relatively new but it didn't take long for people to whine, complain and cry foul. There are some wicked cool people involved with tmr collecting; but at the same time I have encountered some of the most petty, small-minded elitist douchebags I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with in any scene. Do yourselves a favor by being the former and worrying about yourself before getting on others.

This got really long eh? I didn't even get to the terms of services and legality issues. Who hasn't broken the rules in their life? He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Peace out!

[BlindCarbonCopy]

Shane, much respect, no offense taken. I have tried to make it clear that even though I am defending the raffler, that I am certainly not trying to come off disrespectful/attacking/arguing/etc to ANYONE, which certainly includes anonymousbrunette and arewhyehen. After all, anon was definitely coming from a good place, and arewhyehen was understandably upset. As I have said before, though maybe not clearly, I am solely trying to defend a good friend and someone I know very well as a good person and trying to represent the other side of the drama in a drama-free way. Also, again, I absolutely have the utmost respect for everyone here, and look up to or admire many of you, some of which are not involved in this thread, some of which that are.

Anonymousbrunette, I have seen a FS post quite awhile ago from you that used to have the prices. And I can definitely say that you practice what you preach. You were absolutely lower than I could find anywhere else for almost all your items, a few of which I even messaged you about over the summer and intended on purchasing but then my life flipped upside down. So I definitely have very much respect for you, and think more than anything it is just that people don't know you around the raffle group like they know him, and as with any group, human nature is to protect the group that we are a part of from outsiders who threaten it. Also, usual human nature is to also not wanting to believe we were blind/dumb or let ourselves be taken advantage of. So when you talk about things that are much cheaper, eventhough it comes from a good place, having been a part of the first call-out, it appears it comes from jealousy or anger, which is always going to have people backing up the non-aggressor. In essence, it appears to people that you are the villain since the Internet is so cold and non-personal. The people aren't going to believe or want to believe anyone that comes across like that. So through NO FAULT of your own or anyone else's really, that's kind of why I think it went down that way. If I were you, id treat it like EBay, a ton of people are ripping people off and getting ripped off everyday, but outside of messaging the seller and telling them they are a douchebag IN PRIVATE, there is nothing you can do. Let the blind and dumb, or just the ones that really are smart enough to know what is going on but have weighed the pros and cons (like me) and continue to play anyway, let them all continue on the road and just protect yourself. By all means though, private message the admin if you still are or want to be a part of the raffle group.

Arewhyehen, I get it, I really do. But if you have ever listed and sold anything on EBay, or DISCOGS, or even to some of the people here I'm sure (in swirl, not in this discussion-as with this many members, 100% can't all be guiltless), you never know what happens to it. But it definitely would feel like a slap in the face to list something for a low value to have someone buy it and have no intention of using it but solely buy it because they can sell it for more, definitely would suck. So I'm sympathetic to your reasoning. I just think it probably was in the heat of the moment and with a strong dislike of the guy, things got heated. I'm certainly understanding and have been guilty of that before also. While those events, and it sounds like several other run-ins, have left a bad taste in your mouth, he certainly has done more than his fair share of going out of his way to help many people. Im certainly not saying you should like him, be buddy buddy with him, or anything like that, just explaining that I get it, and that one or a few actions does not define us as a human being (thankfully for my sake). And I can honestly tell you, that even throwing out everything I've ever talked to him about, that I know his EBay username and have seen the things he has bought, and have seen the price he pays and what he charges. I'm not going to argue that he is a flipper, or professional flipper, by definition he is. But buying things from people in this group or in TMRC and raffling them is DEFINITELY not something that is a common occurrence. And he has an amazing personal collection, so I don't want everyone to think anything he tries to buy is going to be flipped, because that definitely is not the case. So that is where my effort lies with this, trying to explain that this raffle group and everything he has done in it should not keep people from interacting with him in here if he is still a member, which I hope he is.

Anyway, I have to get back to work. But I respect you all, and this has all come from a very positive place within me and has never been trying to hurt or upset anyone. So if I have upset anyone or come across that way, I sincerely apologize. Again, that was absolutely never the intention. Have a great day swirlers.

[rsimms3]

Who raffles the rafflers?

[JonnyH]

I wish I were a professional flipper. But I'm way too lazy.

[anonymousbrunette]

It just so happens that this particular host's raffles were popping up on me feed. I don't see all of the auctions so admittedly my posts may have looked personal, which they weren't. At the risk of looking like an asshole I was posting values and options since it seemed as though some people had thrown enough money at these things to buy them outright. We're all adults; they can do as they please. But it never occurred to me that I was creating high drama. Perhaps I've been on Swirl too long as my threshold is pretty high. I've always strived for snark and, on a good day, wit. Ebay is a much more transparent and fair market than the raffle site. All of the information for an informed decision is already there in the way of previous sales, BINs and live auctions. I've no problem with people making money and gambling in moderation is fun. I've said it once and I'll say it again, strong communities regulate themselves and if members aren't going to speak out then these problems are going to drag on.

I posted here on Swirl because the conversation was rumbling behind the scenes - and bubbling up in an unrelated thread - so I thought it deserved its own little room. We've had exhaustive discussions here regarding the necessary evil of flipping. Personally, it makes a difference who I'm selling to because I idealistically want the music lover/vinyl junkie to win every time. Fuck the middle man, and I mean that in the nicest way possible. There are a lot of other members here who feel similar so it makes sense to document what's going down. Open discourse always helps level the playing field. This conversation has been going on at the VRR page too but it's only taking place because people spoke up. Soooo, I didn't realize the protocol and put my comments in the pink column instead of the blue one. My bad. This is a good conversation to be had and since people started raising eyebrows (before I ever showed up) your friend's (and hopefully other hosts') raffles appear to have become more reasonable. The system is working. These are the growing pains. I'm not winning popularity contests for these sentiments and I'm certainly not qualified to be the morality police, but I'm tryin' real hard to be (a) shepherd.

Sanders 2016

[anonymousbrunette]

I'm new here, obviously, but members of the other groups. I have no stake in anything and don't participate in raffles at this point, so I guess I'm neutral to the whole topic. Try not to take this post personally as it's a commentary on the overall topic at hand. If it is taken personally by anyone oh well, step back for a moment and ask yourself why you're taking exception to it. I'm just a nobody anyway.

I do find the drama being manufactured by individuals with no interest in the raffles to be unnecessary and childish at best. The word "toxic" was used to describe the environment these raffles and the associated "prices" could create. The reality is that the only people creating that drama are individuals not even involved with them. I've read the explanations in this thread, and others on Facebook, as to why people think it's their responsibility to take issue with raffles. Frankly all the explanations come off as nothing but self-serving scenester BS. The never-ending crusade against flippers, the pseudo-collective concern for every buyers interest, and the heartfelt concern for the health of a hip scene. All valid concerns to some small degree I suppose, but at the same time I'm not swallowing the selfless nature of these call-outs.

When it comes to people reselling or raffling items why are you concerned and why is it your business? Why do you care how people spend their money and why do you care how much other people make from selling/raffling items? Is there scene-wide sale price envy? I don't see the point at all. Reselling items of all sorts is how money is made throughout the entire world economy. If someone has the resources (time + money + effort) to buy items then turnaround and sell them for a profit, well good for them. That's just good business sense. Just because you do not want to do something similar or be involved does not mean it's wrong to do it. Everyone literally engages in the reselling of goods/services in some capacity nearly on a daily basis. Cherry-picking which ones to be angry about is kinda annoying.   

Whether it is a sale transaction or a raffle the basic market forces and economic theories will always prevail. When prices are too high the items won't move. When the demand is there and the buyers are willing to consistently pay the price, well then there is general proof of market value. There will always be aberrations and extremes at both ends of the value spectrum with the majority ending up around the middle. That is the bell curve all aspects of life adhere to. There IS a considerable amount of emotional influence on collectibles of course, which drives purchasing decisions. This is all base level economics that everyone should have a firm grasp on, if not there is plenty of info on the glorious internet. Now back to the raffle aspect.

Aggregate raffle "prices" do not have, or have not consistently demonstrated, an upward pressure or influence on true market values and they likely never will. How many other things are raffled off on a daily basis? You don't see the price for whatever generic item skyrocketing in price because raffles brought in that party more than the "value".  A raffle and a market based sale are two unrelated and incomparable events. The fact that someone can go out and outright buy the item for $100 less than the raffle aggregate price is completely irrelevant. The assumption is that an individual participating in a raffle is within the same market cross-section as the individual in the cash buyer market. The assumption is of course wrong and doesn't take into account a few points. The #1 point is the gambling aspect.  People LOVE gambling and the associated dopamine rush. The possibility of getting something big for virtually nothing and the feeling of fun that goes along with. I shouldn't have to tell anyone how popular and large an industry gambling is. The person willing to spend $20 on a single raffle is not the same person willing to continually spend $300 on one item. Even if their aggregate raffle spending reaches $300 it is likely handled as their additional discretionary money, free to burn on whatever. Do you openly criticize the lottery, casinos and the patrons of each? I would hope not because that's generally a jerk move. You're not responsible for these people, don't try to be their mommy & daddy.

I saw the word "unethical" used as well. It seems as if anytime any profit is made from selling a piece of TMR gear it's virtually considered a sin. Someone sold an item to another person for a sweet price and then that second person turned around and sold it for a profit, so who is the fool in that transaction chain? Why would you get angry that you basically did someone a half-favor but they didn't pass it along to the next person? Focus on yourself and stop worrying about other people, it makes you petty. The participants are all considered to be willing and able to understand the rules of the game and acting with fully conscious volition. Explain to me how it is unethical. I used to buy broken dirt bikes/atv for cheap then part them out and sell the parts individually and make a killing. It is expected of me to sell parts at a price near the cost that I bought them at? Hell no! I was in it to make money not hook people up and spend my time for no reason.

After the time and resources put into a raffle most sellers are walking away with profits less than $100. It requires more time and effort than just listing something for sale, taking the money and shipping it out. I cannot understand the hate for people spending their time and maximizing the return on it. I considered raffling off some stuff I own, but came to the conclusion that it's just more time and effort than I want to bother putting in. Then this mix of drama whining came along with tmr getting thrown into the fold and I said the hell with it for now.

There is such a scene-wide concern over prices by the very people who propagate the demand and drive the prices, it's mildly humorous. The finger is always pointed at the next guy and that pointing goes round and round the circle until the buck stops. I believe some people actually went to tmr to tell them people were raffling off their swag? It has actually regressed all the way back to grade school? Outstanding.

I would like to know why tmr would actually take the time to care. Someone give me a logical and compelling reason for tmr to take more than 1 second out of it's day to care about flipping/raffling their records/swag. Because they want the nice 'love our fans' pr? BS.

They have created this market, this is -exactly- the goal of the business. They have a strong primary market to the point where demand can always outstrip supply. They use that to their advantage by creating small batch limited items which are difficult to get and drives a very strong secondary market. Then it cycles back into new customers in their primary market and it starts all over. They love this, it's what's supposed to happen. Other record companies would kill to have it. So where is the vitriol for the very organization that creates this entire situation? It can't exist because it is the very temple this entire scene worships.

Remember when tmr sold five rare reissues on eBay, then caught flak for it? Then they responded with a basic 'well f u why can't we do it and make money? This is America, capitalism!'. That is the company people ran to in order to tattle tale on their scene peers. Bottom line is tmr shouldn't really care (it's not in their best interest to) and they don't have any control over larger economic forces of the secondary market.

The entire reselling horse has been endlessly beaten and no matter how much sense and logic is brought to the table some people just can't get over it. Now the raffling thing is relatively new but it didn't take long for people to whine, complain and cry foul. There are some wicked cool people involved with tmr collecting; but at the same time I have encountered some of the most petty, small-minded elitist douchebags I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with in any scene. Do yourselves a favor by being the former and worrying about yourself before getting on others.

This got really long eh? I didn't even get to the terms of services and legality issues. Who hasn't broken the rules in their life? He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Peace out!

See my last post. Welcome aboard nobody!

[arewhyehen]

Oh thank god, more people explaining to me my emotions, reasoning and reactions. I wasn't sure of myself.

I thought I explained myself quite well, and it's not out of anger for the person or any of those other long winded explanations above, but thanks for trying. I simply just call bullshit when I see it. Always have and always will.

[runofthemill]

Y'all some long winded sum bitches.